Interview Summary

Let me congratulate the two of you for being way ahead of your time. I mean the two of you through your research and your advocacy and your organizational work, you were onto these things way before most people were. I’m really happy that you’re joining us today, and welcome to our podcast. Kathryn, let me begin with you. So why be concerned about this digital landscape?

Kathryn – Well, certainly if we’re talking about children and youth, we have to pay attention to the world they live in. And it’s a digital world as I think any parent knows, and everybody knows. In fact, for all of us, we’re living in a digital world. So young people are living their lives online. They’re using mobile phones and mobile devices all the time. They’re doing online video streaming. They form their communications with their peers online. Their entire lives are completely integrated into this digital media landscape, and we must understand it. Certainly, the food and beverage industry understand it very well. And they have figured out enormously powerful ways to reach and engage young people through these digital media.

You know, the extent of the kids’ connection to this is really remarkable. I just finished a few minutes ago recording a podcast with two people involved with the Children and Screens organization. And, Chris Perry, who’s the executive director of that organization and Dmitri Christakis who was with us as well, were saying that kids sometimes check their digital media 300 times a day. I mean, just unbelievable how much of this there is. There’s a lot of reasons to be concerned. Let’s turn our attention to how bad it is, what companies are doing, and what might be done about it. So, Jeff, tell us if you would, about the work of the Center for Digital Democracy.

Jeff – Well, for more than a quarter of a century, we have tracked the digital marketplace. As you said at the top, we understood in the early 1990s that the internet, broadband what’s become today’s digital environment, was going to be the dominant communications system. And it required public interest rules and policies and safeguards. So as a result, one of the things that our Center does is we look at the entire digital landscape as best as we can, especially what the ultra-processed food companies are doing, but including Google and Meta and Amazon and GenAI companies. We are tracking what they’re doing, how they’re creating the advertising, what their data strategies are, what their political activities are in the United States and in many other places in the world. Because the only way we’re going to hold them accountable is if we know what they’re doing and what they intend to do. And just to quickly follow up, Kelly, the marketers call today’s global generation of young people Generation Alpha. Meaning that they are the first generation to be born into this complete digital landscape environment that we have created. And they have developed a host of strategies to target children at the earliest ages to take advantage of the fact that they’re growing up digitally.

Boy, pretty amazing – Generation Alpha. Kathryn, I have kind of a niche question I’d like to ask you because it pertains to my own career as well. So, you spent many years as an academic studying and writing about these issues, but also you were a strong advocacy voice. How did you go about balancing the research and the objectivity of an academic with advocacy you were doing?

Kathryn – I think it really is rooted in my fundamental set of values about what it means to be an academic. And I feel very strongly and believe very strongly that all of us have a moral and ethical responsibility to the public. That the work we do should really, as I always have told my students, try to make the world a better place. It may seem idealistic, but I think it is what our responsibility is. And I’ve certainly been influenced in my own education by public scholars over the years who have played that very, very important role. It couldn’t be more important today than it has been over the years. And I think particularly if you’re talking about public health, I don’t think you can be neutral. You can have systematic ways of assessing the impact of food marketing, in this case on young people. But I don’t think you can be totally objective and neutral about the need to improve the public health of our citizens. And particularly the public health of our young people.

I agree totally with that. Jeff let’s talk about the concept of targeted marketing. We hear that term a lot. And in the context of food, people talk about marketing aimed at children as one form of targeting. Or, toward children of color or people of color in general. But that’s in a way technological child’s play. I understand from you that there’s much more precise targeting than a big demographic group like that. Tell us more.

Jeff – Well, I mean certainly the ultra-processed food companies are on the cutting edge of using all the latest tools to target individuals in highly personalized way. And I think if I have one message to share with your listeners and viewers is that if we don’t act soon, we’re going to make an already vulnerable group even more exposed to this kind of direct targeted and personalized marketing. Because what artificial intelligence allows the food and beverage companies and their advertising agencies and platform partners to do is to really understand who we are, what we do, where we are, how we react, behave, think, and then target us accordingly using all those elements in a system that can create this kind of advertising and marketing in minutes, if not eventually milliseconds. So, all of marketing, in essence, will be targeted because they know so much about us. You have an endless chain of relationships between companies like Meta, companies like Kellogg’s, the advertising agencies, the data brokers, the marketing clouds, et cetera. Young people especially, and communities of color and other vulnerable groups, have never been more exposed to this kind of invasive, pervasive advertising.

Tell us how targeted it can be. I mean, let’s take a 11-year-old girl who lives in Wichita and a 13-year-old boy who lives in Denver. How much do the companies know about those two people as individuals? And how does a targeting get market to them? Not because they belong to a big demographic group, but because of them as individuals.

Jeff – Well, they certainly are identified in various ways. The marketers know that there are young people in the household. They know that there are young people, parts of families who have various media behaviors. They’re watching these kinds of television shows, especially through streaming or listening to music or on social media. Those profiles are put together. And even when the companies say they don’t exactly know who the child is or not collecting information from someone under 13 because of the privacy law that we helped get enacted, they know where they are and how to reach them. So, what you’ve had is an unlimited amassing of data power developed by the food and beverage companies in the United States over the last 25 years. Because really very little has been put in their way to stop them from what they do and plan to do.

So presumably you could get some act of Congress put in to forbid the companies from targeting African American children or something like that. But it doesn’t sound like that would matter because they’re so much more precise in the market.

Yes. I mean, in the first place you couldn’t get congress to pass that. And I think this is the other thing to think about when you think about the food and beverage companies deploying Generative AI and the latest tools. They’ve already established vast, what they call insights divisions, market research divisions, to understand our behavior. But now they’re able to put all that on a fast, fast, forward basis because of data processing, because of data clouds, let’s say, provided by Amazon, and other kinds of tools. They’re able to really generate how to sell to us individually, what new products will appeal to us individually and even create the packaging and the promotion to be personalized. So, what you’re talking about is the need for a whole set of policy safeguards. But I certainly think that people concerned about public health need to think about regulating the role of Generative AI, especially when it comes to young people to ensure that they’re not marketed to in the ways that it fact is and will continue to do.

Kathryn, what about the argument that it’s a parent’s responsibility to protect their children and that government doesn’t need to be involved in this space?

Kathryn – Well, as a parent, I have to say is extremely challenging. We all do our best to try to protect our children from unhealthy influences, whether it’s food or something that affects their mental health. That’s a parent’s obligation. That’s what a parent spends a lot of time thinking about and trying to do. But this is an environment that is overwhelming. It is intrusive. It reaches into young people’s lives in ways that make it virtually impossible for parents to intervene. These are powerful companies, and I’m including the tech companies. I’m including the retailers. I’m including the ad agencies as well as these global food and beverage companies. They’re extremely powerful. As Jeff has been saying, they have engaged and continue to engage in enormous amounts of technological innovation and research to figure out precisely how to reach and engage our children. And it’s too much for parents. And I’ve been saying this for years. I’ve been telling legislators this. I’ve been telling the companies this. It’s not fair. It’s a very unfair situation for parents.

That makes perfect sense. Well, Jeff, your Center produces some very helpful and impressive reports. And an example of that is work you’ve done on the vast surveillance of television viewers. Tell us more about that, if you would.

Jeff – Well, you know, you have to keep up with this, Kelly. The advocates in the United States and the academics with some exceptions have largely failed to address the contemporary business practices of the food and beverage companies. This is not a secret what’s going on now. I mean the Generative AI stuff and the advanced data use, you know, is recent. But it is a continuum. And the fact is that we’ve been one of the few groups following it because we care about our society, our democracy, our media system, et cetera. But so much more could be done here to track what the companies are doing to identify the problematic practices, to think about counter strategies to try to bring change. So yes, we did this report on video streaming because in fact, it’s the way television has now changed. It’s now part of the commercial surveillance advertising and marketing complex food and beverage companies are using the interactivity and the data collection of streaming television. And we’re sounding the alarm as we’ve been sounding now for too long. But hopefully your listeners will, in fact, start looking more closely at this digital environment because if we don’t intervene in the next few years, it’ll be impossible to go back and protect young people.

So, when people watch television, they don’t generally realize or appreciate the fact that information is being collected on them.

Jeff – The television watches you now. The television is watching you now. The streaming companies are watching you now. The device that brings you streaming television is watching you now is collecting all kinds of data. The streaming device can deliver personalized ads to you. They’ll be soon selling you products in real time. And they’re sharing that data with companies like Meta Facebook, your local retailers like Albertsons, Kroger, et cetera. It’s one big, huge digital data marketing machine that has been created. And the industry has been successful in blocking legislation except for the one law we were able to get through in 1998. And now under the Trump administration, they have free reign to do whatever they want. It’s going to be an uphill battle. But I do think the companies are in a precarious position politically if we could get more people focused on what they’re doing.

Alright, we’ll come back to that. My guess is that very few people realize the kind of thing that you just talked about. That so much information is being collected on them while they’re watching television. The fact that you and your center are out there making people more aware, I think, is likely to be very helpful.

Jeff – Well, I appreciate that, Kelly, but I have to say, and I don’t want to denigrate our work, but you know, I just follow the trades. There’s so much evidence if you care about the media and if you care about advertising and marketing or if you care, just let’s say about Coca-Cola or Pepsi or Mondalez. Pick one you can’t miss all this stuff. It’s all there every day. And the problem is that there has not been the focus, I blame the funders in part. There’s not been the focus on this marketplace in its contemporary dimensions.

I’d like to ask you both about the legislative landscape and whether there are laws protecting people, especially children from this marketing. And Kathy, both you and Jeff were heavily involved in advocacy for a landmark piece of legislation that Jeff referred to from 1998, the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act. What did this act involve? And now that we’re some years in, how has it worked?

Kathryn – Well, I always say I’ve been studying advertising in the digital media before people even knew there was going to be advertising in digital media. Because we’re really talking about the earliest days of the internet when it was being commercialized. But there was a public perception promoted by the government and the industry and a lot of other institutions and individuals that this was going to be a whole new democratic system of technology. And that basically it would solve all of our problems in terms of access to information. In terms of education. It would open up worlds to young people. In many ways it has, but they didn’t talk really that much about advertising. Jeff and I working together at the Center for Media Education, were already tracking what was going on in that marketplace in the mid-1990s when it was very, very new. At which point children were already a prime target. They were digital kids. They were considered highly lucrative. Cyber Tots was one of the words that was used by the industry. What we believed was that we needed to get some public debate and some legislation in place, some kinds of rules, to guide the development of this new commercialized media system. And so, we launched a campaign that ultimately resulted in the passage of the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act. Now it only governs commercial media, online, digital media that targets children under the age of 13, which was the most vulnerable demographic group of young people. We believe protections are really, really very important for teenagers. There’s a lot of evidence for that now, much more research actually, that’s showing their vulnerable abilities. And it has required companies to take young people into account when developing their operations. It’s had an impact internationally in a lot of other countries. It is just the barest minimum of what we need in terms of protections for young people. And we’ve worked with the Federal Trade Commission over the years to ensure that those rules were updated and strengthened so that they would apply to this evolving digital media system. But now, I believe, that what we need is a more global advocacy strategy. And we are already doing that with advocates in other countries to develop a strategy to address the practices of this global industry. And there are some areas where we see some promising movement. The UK, for example, passed a law that bans advertising on digital media online. It has not yet taken effect, but now it will after some delays. And there are also other things going on for ultra processed foods, for unhealthy foods and beverages.

So, Kathryn has partly answered this already, Jeff, but let me ask you. That act that we’ve talked about goes back a number of years now, what’s being done more recently on the legislative front? Perhaps more important than that, what needs to be done?

Well, I have to say, Kelly, that when Joe Biden came in and we had a public interest chair at the Federal Trade Commission, Lena Khan, I urged advocates in the United States who are concerned about unhealthy eating to approach the Federal Trade Commission and begin a campaign to see what we could do. Because this was going to be the most progressive Federal Trade Commission we’ve had in decades. And groups failed to do so for a variety of reasons. So that window has ended where we might be able to get the Federal Trade Commission to do something. There are people in the United States Congress, most notably Ed Markey, who sponsored our Children’s Privacy Law 25 years ago, to get legislation. But I think we have to look outside of the United States, as Kathryn said. Beyond the law in the United Kingdom. In the European Union there are rules governing digital platforms called the Digital Services Act. There’s a new European Union-wide policy safeguards on Generative AI. Brazil has something similar. There are design codes like the UK design code for young people. What we need to do is to put together a package of strategies at the federal and perhaps even state level. And there’s been some activity at the state level. You know, the industry has been opposed to that and gone to court to fight any rules protecting young people online. But create a kind of a cutting-edge set of practices that then could be implemented here in the United States as part of a campaign. But there are models.

And how do the political parties break down on this, these issues?

Kathryn – I was going to say they break down.

Jeff – The industry is so powerful still. You have bipartisan support for regulating social media when it comes to young people because there have been so many incidences of suicide and stalking and other kinds of emotional and psychological harms to young people. You have a lot of Republicans who have joined with Democrats and Congress wanting to pass legislation. And there’s some bipartisan support to expand the privacy rules and even to regulate online advertising for teens in our Congress. But it’s been stymied in part because the industry has such an effective lobbying operation. And I have to say that in the United States, the community of advocates and their supporters who would want to see such legislation are marginalized. They’re under underfunded. They’re not organized. They don’t have the research. It’s a problem. Now all these things can be addressed, and we should try to address them. But right now it’s unlikely anything will pass in the next few months certainly.

Kathryn – Can I just add something? Because I think what’s important now in this really difficult period is to begin building a broader set of stakeholders in a coalition. And as I said, I think it does need to be global. But I want to talk about also on the research front, there’s been a lot of really important research on digital food marketing. On marketing among healthy foods and beverages to young people, in a number of different countries. In the UK, in Australia, and other places around the world. And these scholars have been working together and a lot of them are working with scholars here in the US where we’ve seen an increase in that kind of research. And then advocates need to work together as well to build a movement. It could be a resurgence that begins outside of our country but comes back in at the appropriate time when we’re able to garner the kind of support from our policymakers that we need to make something happen.

That makes good sense, especially a global approach when it’s hard to get things done here. Jeff, you alluded to the fact that you’ve done work specifically on ultra processed foods. Tell us what you’re up to on that front.

Jeff – As part of our industry analysis we have been tracking what all the leading food and beverage companies are doing in terms of what they would call their digital transformation. I mean, Coca-Cola and Pepsi on Mondelez and Hershey and all the leading transnational processed food companies are really now at the end of an intense period of restructuring to take advantage of the capabilities provided by digital data and analytics for the further data collection, machine learning, and Generative AI. And they are much more powerful, much more effective, much more adept. In addition, the industry structure has changed in the last few years also because of digital data that new collaborations have been created between the platforms, let’s say like Facebook and YouTube, the food advertisers, their marketing agencies, which are now also data companies, but most notably the retailers and the grocery stores and the supermarkets. They’re all working together to share data to collaborate on marketing and advertising strategies. So as part of our work we’ve kept abreast of all these things and we’re tracking them. And now we are sharing them with a group of advocates outside of the United States supported by the Bloomberg Philanthropies to support their efforts. And they’ve already made tremendous progress in a lot of areas around healthy eating in countries like Mexico and Argentina and Brazil, et cetera.

And I’m assuming all these technological advances and the marketing muscle, the companies have is not being used to market broccoli and carrots and Brussels sprouts. Is that right?

Jeff – The large companies are aware of changing attitudes and the need for healthy foods. One quick takeaway I have is this. That because the large ultra processed food companies understand that there are political pressures promoting healthier eating in North America and in Europe. They are focused on expanding their unhealthy eating portfolio, in new regions specifically Asia Pacific, Africa, and Latin America. And China is a big market for all this. This is why it has to be a global approach here, Kelly. First place, these are transnational corporations. They are creating the, our marketing strategies at the global level and then transmitting them down to be tailored at the national or regional level. They’re coming up with a single set of strategies that will affect every country and every child in those countries. We need to keep track of that and figure out ways to go after that. And there are global tools we might be able to use to try to protect young people. Because if you could protect young, a young person in China, you might also be able to protect them here in North Carolina.

This all sounds potentially pretty scary, but is there reason to be optimistic? Let’s see if we can end on a positive note. What do you think. Do you have reason to be optimistic?

Kathryn – I’ve always been an optimist. I’ve always tried to be an optimist, and again, what I would say is if we look at this globally and if we identify partners and allies all around the world who are doing good work, and there are many, many, many of them. And if we work together and continue to develop strategies for holding this powerful industry and these powerful industries accountable. I think we will have success. And I think we should also shine the spotlight on areas where important work has already taken place. Where laws have been enacted. Where companies have been made to change their practices and highlight those and build on those successes from around the world.

Thanks. Jeff, what about you? Is there reason to be optimistic?

Well, I don’t think we can stop trying, although we’re at a particularly difficult moment here in our country and worldwide. Because unless we try to intervene the largest corporations, who are working and will work closely with our government and other government, will be able to impact our lives in so many ways through their ability to collect data. And to use that data to target us and to change our behaviors. You can change our health behaviors. You can try to change our political behaviors. What the ultra-processed food companies are now able to do every company is able to do and governments are able to do. We have to expose what they’re doing, and we have to challenge what they’re doing so we can try to leave our kids a better world.

It makes sense. Do you see that the general public is more aware of these issues and is there reason to be optimistic on that front? That awareness might lead to pressure on politicians to change things?

Jeff – You know, under the Biden administration, the Federal Trade Commission identified how digital advertising and marketing works and it made it popular among many, many more people than previously. And that’s called commercial surveillance advertising. The idea that data is collected about you is used to advertise and market to you. And today there are thousands of people and certainly many more advocacy groups concerned about commercial surveillance advertising than there were prior to 2020. And all over the world, as Kathryn said, in countries like in Brazil and South Africa and Mexico, advocates are calling attention to all these techniques and practices. More and more people are being aware and then, you know, we need obviously leaders like you, Kelly, who can reach out to other scholars and get us together working together in some kind of larger collaborative to ensure that these techniques and capabilities are exposed to the public and we hold them accountable.