Interview Summary

Download Whither Convergence? Co-designing convergent research and wrestling with its emergent tensions This material is based upon work supported by the National Science Foundation under Award No. 2115405.

Norbert Wilson – It is my great pleasure to welcome my colleague, Amanda Wood, who is a research scientist at the World Food Policy Center.

Amanda Wood – Thank you, Norbert. I’m looking forward to this discussion today. Our guests come from the University of Illinois Institute of Technology Food Systems Action Lab. Weslynne Ashton is a professor of environmental management and sustainability at Illinois Tech and co directs the Food Systems Action Lab. Azra Sungu is a design researcher and strategist at the Food Systems Action Lab, who just defended her doctoral dissertation. So, our biggest congratulations to Dr. Sungu. Thank you so much for being here today. So first, I want to start by saying the RECIPES Network has gone about their work a little bit differently than most traditional academic projects by taking a convergence approach. Weslynne, would you talk about what convergence is in research, and why is this approach useful for tackling complex societal challenges like food waste?

Weslynne Ashton – Convergence is an approach that really tries to integrate the best of many different disciplines. The way that they see, approach, and tackle problems. And tries to integrate them in a really holistic way, right? Like, we often operate in silos and universities and this is a way of trying to get out of that. But more than working side by side on the same topics, it really tries to pull ways of working and ways of knowing across these different disciplines. For the topic of food waste, which as Norbert described is incredibly complex, right? There are so many different dimensions. They’re scientific, natural science, social science, anthropological, political science. So, there are these technical aspects, economic aspects, social aspects, as well as cultural and spiritual aspects that we really don’t talk about that often. And so, a convergence approach tries to say, how can we bring together the way all of these different disciplines approach understanding and developing solutions so that the solutions we develop can be more holistic. And more likely to take hold because they are considering these different perspectives.

Amanda – A lot of individuals might not see food waste as this complex challenge. They throw their leftovers in the bin and that’s food waste to them. But as you say, challenges of food waste and food loss extend all the way across the food system. So, we definitely need that more holistic approach. Thanks for that bigger picture. Norbert, over to you.

Norbert – Azra, I’d like to turn it over to you and ask you a question about design. And I’ve got to say, this is the first project that I’ve ever worked on where I’ve worked with design scholars. And so, I’m excited for you to share with our audience what actually is design. And how do you see design fitting in the context of the work that we’ve been doing?

Azra Sungu – Thank you. Yes, it’s been very exciting for me to part of such a transdisciplinary group as well. And probably in over 12 years of design education that I got, that was the most frequent question. Like my family and everyone that’s asking, like, what is it that you do actually? So, I think it’s really important that we clarify that because design in this context is a little bit different than the design of products and services.

In a way, we could say that it carries similar principles, but in recent years, design has been gaining visibility as a creative and collaborative problem-solving approach. So, some of the key mindsets, methods, and processes of design have been distilled into more accessible toolkits that allow more people from various backgrounds and expertise to get together and collaboratively explore problems of different kinds and approach them in more creative ways. So, we can say that, yeah, this adaptation of design found applications in different fields, such as entrepreneurship. We see that picking up in education or even apply to issues related to social justice. And I would say that what makes it different from other problem-solving approaches is that it centers a deep understanding of humans, their needs, their interactions, their behaviors in every step of the process. So, from framing the problem to testing out the solutions. And in design, we combine this human centered approach with a hands-on process where we iteratively explore a solution by making things and experimenting in a more open-ended way, rather than like planning everything and applying the solution at the end.

So, in the context of convergence, I think of convergence as a collaborative search for ways for reshaping the systems that we live in. And if I pick back on what Weslynne just said, yeah, the design can help ground this search in the real lives of people so that the solutions we envision can be adopted and also actualized by people who are driving this change on the ground. So, it can support a more action oriented approach to knowledge production.

But another role of design, which we speak more of in the paper, is designing the conditions for this form of collaborative research and knowledge production. Designing the spaces where people can build relations to build really confidence to think outside of the box. And I see it as giving people the tools and processes to tap into their collective creativity. And that you can’t really get out of a toolkit. That’s a deeper and relational process.

Norbert – Thank you for sharing that. And I am really pleased that we’ve had the opportunity to not only work with you all, but folks at MIKA to think about design in this network. And can you give us an example of how you all were able to use design to help us work better together, to move us closer to convergence?

Azra – Yes. I guess in the first two year of the RECIPES where we explored design’s role in the context of convergence, it’s applied more to the second part of design’s role that I mentioned earlier. So, creating the conditions for convergence to happen. And I think we’re in the process of shifting to applying design to the solutions and like this iterative process itself.

I would say that there are five components that we identified in our investigation. And I always like to joke that like, we can’t just throw people in a room and expect them to collaborate and come up with results. And let’s remember RECIPES as a network started during the pandemic. We didn’t even get a room to be together in until two years later. So, in this context, a key role of design was really convening people and connecting them to build that capacity and trust in each other to collaborate. And like trust one another to jump into a very open ended and ambiguous form of inquiry. Because this is what happens when we tackle such complex challenges as wasted food. And the other role is perhaps, yeah, in this exploration giving a shared vision to people to move towards. And enticing possibilities in this vision that may not be in our immediate horizon. So again, like how we think outside of the box and envision possibilities that may not seem evident. But that might be the root of more transformative change.

And the third role is probably one that relates to storytelling and visualizing. So, as we gather a group of people with such mixed disciplinary expertise and mixed personal backgrounds, we don’t necessarily talk the same language. Even if you’re approaching the same problem. So even when we talk about wasted food, it might seem so evident, but we might focus on completely different sides of it. And yeah, we have like mathematicians, chemists, engineers, social scientists in the same room. And when we’re collaborating with such mixed group of expertise, design can create the interfaces, the visual language for us to be able to speak of the same thing and communicate ideas. But also, like foster flow and dissemination of ideas between these different conversations by telling the stories and capturing the ideas and really distilling them in a more relatable and accessible way. Because God knows we have a lot of meetings, and somebody needs like shepherd those conversations.

And the last ones are probably like making and prototyping. Which I think is very, very core to design practice, right? We just materialize things, whether it’s in a visual format or whether it’s like really getting hands on and making something that we got a taste of in our first network meeting that was in person.

I think one process where this manifested really beautifully was the creation of guiding principles and community norms that was a very collaborative and co-creative process where Network members really shaped how they would like to work together and create together and set the conditions for that. So, in this process, designers collaborated with other researchers in the network to set these workshops to gather different perspectives and ideas of network members on what it means to be in a good collaborative research environment. And this was a very iterative process. We created multiple drafts, materialized this, and brought that back to the network and gathered input and feedback. So, it was I think along a process of over a year, it was taking shape. And at the end we had this artifact that was co-created with people from various areas of expertise and had everyone’s input that helped lay the groundwork for a more authentic and genuine collaboration.

Norbert – I want to pick up on one thing you said, Azra. Yes, there were a lot of meetings. So many meetings. But they were really important for us to figure out how to work. But one of the things I found really challenging being a part of the network and as I interacted with the design process is I wasn’t comfortable with the storytelling. I wasn’t comfortable with this sort of new way of being because it wasn’t the way I was trained, right? But over time, I found it sort of expansive. And I love there was a conversation we had before we started our recording, this idea of being my whole self in the process. Of being my whole self in the project. And I, I really have enjoyed, and I will use the word ‘enjoyed’ working with this network because I’m fully myself in many of these settings. So, I want to thank you all for helping us do that and opening up new ways to work with other people beyond the network.

Azra – Thank you. Yes. And a question I think that they ask very often when hiring designers is like, are you comfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity? And I always like to say, no. Like nobody’s really comfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity. But I think it’s really about building the confidence to jump into that together. And that happens by building trust. It’s not just about producing knowledge and transferring that between one another, but how do we approach this in a more relational way? And I think that’s the transformative shift that’s happening with a more convergent approach to research. Great. Thank you.

Amanda – Sounds like it was a transformative experience for many involved. Good to hear. Weslynne, let me shift back to you so we can dig into some of the results of the paper. In your view, how did the integration of design really enable the network’s convergent approach? And is there anything that didn’t quite work?

Weslynne – Yes, so Azra’s pointed out to several things that the design team did. I would add that we had a dedicated design team, right? That was really important because there was this group who that one would help to facilitate these meetings, right? And get people to come in, structure exercises to get people to talk to each other. Create whiteboards where people could, you know, say what they’re thinking, whether that’s in a larger group or in a smaller group. And then behind the scenes, they would distill and synthesize all these whiteboards from all the breakout groups into something that was actionable, right? And I think like, that’s really one of the powers of design. It’s not just talk, right? It’s how do we take this talk, take people’s ideas, and synthesize them into something that we can create actions around, right? So, the example that Azra gave of the guiding principles and community norms, you know, looked like several brainstorming sessions and breakout groups where people had a document, a kernel to react to. And weigh in on what are the values and the principles that they thought were important for us to have in this network to guide how we worked, not only with each other, but also with external partners. And to iterate, right, iterate on those prototypes and bring something back to the group that, that we can hold up and say, yeah, this is something that, you know, like we all agree to at least for now, right? In a year we might learn something else and want to come back to this and change it. But having that dedicated team was really important.

I’d say another thing that convergence puts forward is the importance of integrating the next generation of scientists, of researchers, into practice. And so, I think one of the things that we did well in the structure of the network. So, we were structured in different thematic clusters. But there was a student cluster where all the students from all of the disciplines came together, including the design students. And it turned out that the design students gave some training to the other students in design methods in facilitation. And that actually I think is perhaps one of the most beautiful examples of convergence in the network. So that the students were able to understand each other’s work in a much deeper way. And think about how they might use design in this work.

So, what design did well, and reiterating on what Azra said, it’s really creating these enabling conditions, right? For people to feel comfortable, to show up as their whole selves. To make it okay to take a risk and say something crazy, something out of the box. Because someone would be able to synthesize that into a hole later on.

I think there were perhaps like a couple instances, like within some of these thematic clusters where we had initially thought, okay, we’re going to put a designer in each of these clusters and use that as a way to integrate some design thinking into each of these groups. But there were some of the groups that were like really so highly technical and so highly focused that it was hard for the designer, who does not have that technical background, to get a toehold in that group. And so, where we kind of merged is that we had our co-design cluster as the primary place where people who we’re designers or we’re curious about design could come to learn. And then can take that back to the groups that they were working in. Rather than trying to plug design into every single one of the clusters.

Amanda – I really appreciate these insights, especially underscoring the importance of having specific roles to help facilitate. I think, often as researchers when you’re applying for grants, either the funder doesn’t allow you to apply for a facilitator role, or you think, oh, we have too many important other researchers that we need to fund. And I think this project was a great example that, I think Azra said it before, collaboration doesn’t just happen when you throw people in a room. And this project really highlighted the value of having those design experts in the group. Helping everyone along on that journey. I hope that these learnings can go out to both funders and other research groups. But I’d like to ask both of you a question now. In the paper, you write that the pairing of convergence and design is a natural fit, but not necessarily a seamless one. What kind of tensions or challenges did the Network face when using design to foster convergence? And Weslynne, let’s start with you.

Weslynne – One of the important tensions, I think, is on this role of a designer, right? So, often when designers show up in spaces, it’s as a graphic designer. So, someone who’s visualizing the process making illustrations. It’s as a facilitator, right? So, someone who’s structuring the conversation to be more productive, to help people be more collaborative. And the tension that we see is that that’s not the only role of design, right? Design research in and of itself is an important research area that adds value to projects, right? And whether that is using a human centered design research approach, right? Where we’re plugging in designers into a research project. For example, to learn about how employees are behaving, right? And if we wanted to change a particular food waste prevention strategy in grocery stores, we need to engage the employees to understand their perspectives, right? So, designers help to integrate that approach as a research method. And so, you know, this tension here is that we can have some designers working as facilitators of this network convergence, but we also need designers as researchers who are contributing to the research questions and research methods that we’re trying to converge in the process.

I’ll say one more and then I’ll pass to Azra to, to see what she would add. This is a National Science Foundation funded project, right? And there is an inherent tension that the type of research that NSF tends to fund is very STEM focused, right? So, it’s science, technology, engineering, math. And there is social science, but certainly, you know, like, we have a dominance of science and technology as the predominant set of disciplines in this group. And so that means that the social scientists, the designers are kind of at the fringes. And one of our challenges was to really create a space where all of these different disciplines have the ability to come in on an equal footing. I’m sure Azra would like to add a couple more.

Azra – Yeah, thank you. I could build up on what you just said about like how design’s role is understood. Yeah, when I was first talking about design, I talked about how toolkits made it more accessible. Like processes of human centered design and design thinking to be learned and adopted by people who are non-designers, and really gain more visibility to design. It was a blessing, but also a barrier for people to understand broader expertise of design, right? Like what, what we learned in 12 years of school cannot necessarily be translated to toolkits. And there is in the design field itself, over the past decade, there has been different branches that are emerging that are specifically dealing with the complex issues that we try to tackle through convergence research. So, we have specific areas of expertise. Like, systemic design, who tries to use design processes to understand systemic dynamics and patterns. We have transition design who tries to understand how long-term transition processes can be fostered in more creative and inclusive ways. Or we have life centered design that some of the researchers from MIKA are leading that are going beyond human centered design approach, but like saying, how can we center the life itself? How can we consider the needs of non-human beings in our design processes? And I think it’s going to be a lot longer process for like these different areas of expertise of design to gain more visibility. But it’s also, yeah, a mutual understanding that gets fostered as we work together.

And perhaps the second thing I could add, I’ve been talking a lot about unlearning and unmaking recently. And it’s probably the stage that I met at the end of PhD journey, where I realized how much unlearning it took. And I think the same applies to convergence research, because here we are trying to cultivate a completely different way of working that goes beyond disciplinary boundaries, that goes beyond geographic boundaries that sometimes goes beyond like the hierarchies that we’re used to in academia. And there are certain structures and mindsets that come from traditional scholarship that can get into way of such authentic collaboration and open-ended way of working, right? We work with a certain funding structure. We work with certain expectations of progress and success from academia. And that might conflict sometimes with like a very open-ended exploration and experimentation that might also include failure and not getting anywhere at the end. So, yeah, I think there are some structures and mindsets that we need to reevaluate. We want to cultivate a broader culture of convergence.

Amanda – Thank you. I have to admit as a researcher, I was probably one who did not appreciate all of the nuances of design. So, this has been a very enlightening conversation. But also, just the emphasis that this is going to take time. It’s not necessarily that you get in your first convergent project and wow, you’ve now done the perfect model of convergence. You’re learning as you go. As you said, sometimes failure is involved. And so, it’s just the journey that you’re on. Thank you so much for those reflections.

Norbert – Weslynne, I want to come back to you and just think about something that was already said. This idea of we can’t just simplify design as a series of tools that you could just kind of pick up and put into something else. And appreciating the complexity, the richness of what design as a discipline is, I’m interested to know how do we best use design, recognizing that it’s a huge area? How do we use it authentically to address issues like convergence in the research team? And I want to even push that a little bit further. I mean, because some of our listeners are not researchers. They’re not part of research teams, but they’re designing policy. They’re designing or they’re a part of policy efforts. I’d be interested to think about what design can offer to any sort of group of people coming together to solve complicated challenges.

Weslynne – I’m going to bring this into my teaching because I think like as a lecturer in a design school, one of the things that, that I emphasize in thinking about systems, thinking about how designers show up, is that there are many different types of expertise, right? So, there’s our professional, educational expertise. There’s the expertise of lived experiences. And it’s often the case that we are biased in terms of one being more important than the other. And I tried to train my students to think about, like, what are their own biases and assumptions coming into situations. So that they can more authentically create space for different viewpoints and different ways of being.

So, if we’re trying to map systems and map all of the forces that are important for not only understanding a problem, and not just kind of the symptom of the problem that we see, but the real patterns and structures that are the root cause of those problems. That we have to kind of create a space where people can feel more comfortable to really explore more of those, those root causes. I think in applying design and a convergent research context, and a policy solution development process, that designers can help to create the conditions, create a space, for people from different perspectives to come into that space and be comfortable bringing their knowledge, their ways of being, their ways of knowing into that context. And that’s a skill, right? That is a facilitation skill to help people show up in, in that way. I think that there are also these tensions that we came across in this Network, in the course of doing this research, where, you know, we found that it’s really important to create a space for reflexivity. So that it’s not just about creating these outputs and it’s not just about these tasks. But creating a space where people have the time to reflect on what’s happening, well, what has happened, and how they can then integrate that back into their practice, right? There can be these cycles of convergence, but there’s also a need for divergence, right? And giving people the space to express what they’re interested in, do the types of work that they’re most interested in. And then come back together to say, okay, how can we bring these things together? I see design as really helping to play an important role in reframing questions. In helping groups dig deeper and reach more robust understanding of the challenges that they face. And then help to make the solutions more actionable, right? And that’s not just as a research output. It’s not just as a research paper. But really having solutions that work for a diversity of people.

Norbert – I’m grateful for the way you’ve explained what design is. Both you and Azra have explained what design is and what it can do for us as members of society. And I just think about the current political and social moments that we’re in and how design has a role to play in helping us, as you talked about, reframing problems, and finding solutions that benefit a broad swath of society. I didn’t realize I was going to become an evangelist for designers. And I’m grateful for the work that you all are helping us think differently about how we do research or how we engage the larger community.

This podcast is cosponsored by the RECIPES food waste research collaboration, led by American University and funded by the National Science Foundation.